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Help me diagnose what (if anything) I'm doing wrong?

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psimitry



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 75
Location: maricopa

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject: Help me diagnose what (if anything) I'm doing wrong? Reply with quote

So I planted a pair of orange trees last fall. In the process of asking a bit of advice on here, I found out that I was crazy overwatering them. So I cut back and have been following the recommendation (and the advice on Greenfield Citrus' page). Still, I haven't had a lot of growth from these trees, and one of them looks positively sick. On the one hand, it looks like I'm overwatering it, and on the other, it looks like it's dried out. Help would be appreciated.

Pics for reference (can post more, or higher res pics if requested).

Blood Orange Tree - this one I can't decide if it's healthy or not - it looks like a pale green tree, but that could be the variety for all I know. It has received far less water than its Trovita neighbor because it gets far less direct sunlight:


Blood Orange Tree Closeup 1:


Blood Orange Tree Closeup 2:


Blood Orange Tree Closeup 3:


Trovita - This guy I just can't seem to keep happy. Nothing I do seems to make a whole lot of difference. It was the one that got the worst of the worst overwatering last fall (in once instance, I forgot the hose was on for a while so its entire basin was filled and started to overflow, and a few days later it rained like crazy, filling it again). Still, I'm hoping it can recover:


Trovita Closeup 1 (which makes me think I'm overwatering):


Trovita Closeup 2 (which makes me think I'm underwatering):
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phoenixtropicals
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Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 1207
Location: Mesa Arizona

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your trees look pretty good. Very few plants get really dark green here because the nature of our soil. The discoloration on your leaves is sunburn. There is nothing you can do about that on the leaves and its not a big deal. By the end of summer your tree will look more beat up for sure.

Now, sun burn on the bark is bad and should be avoided, but I see you painted the exposed bark on your trees which is a really good move.

I think just be patient and keep watering them correctly and they will start growing. If you were overwatering them before they will take a while to recover. Do not fertilize them until they get at least twice the size they are now, and then use a very small amount.

I am deeply watering my citrus trees once a week currently and will continue with this schedule until temperatures go under a hundred at the end of the summer. Then I'll cut back the frequency to every 2 weeks. In winter when it gets really cool I'll water them every 3-4 weeks, depending on rain etc.

When I say "deep watering" I mean put the hose under the tree and let it run for at least half an hour and flood a basin around the tree to 2-3 inches deep. I recommend you build more of a birm around your tree, to circle it, to facilitate flooding. The berm should be at least 3 inches high and should circle the tree just beyond the diameter of its branches.

Good luck, and be patient.
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psimitry



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 75
Location: maricopa

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've actually had some thoughts about the trovita orange tree. It's been in for over a year now and has had exactly zero growth and it always seems like it's barely hanging on. Granted, I know that last winter I overwatered it like crazy which likely was the cause of this.

BUT, I'm kicking around the concept of pulling it out and replacing it with a 24" box from Greenfield. At least then I'd know what kind of rootstock it was on (which I currently don't since the tree was given to me as a gift, purchased from Lowes).

The Blood orange tree on the other hand, it also hasn't really grown, but at least I can say that it has far more foliage. That and since it takes supposedly 10 years for them to start producing, I'd hate to reset that clock again. Who knows though, maybe I should just consider taking both of them out.

Also - I have an Erli Grande peach tree. Any thoughts on when that might drop its leaves and go dormant? I'm still watering it, so I figure I should probably know when to cut its water back (or does it NOT get watered while its dormant?).
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phoenixtropicals
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Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 1207
Location: Mesa Arizona

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are best off being patient. Now that you are watering them correctly they will most likely turn around. Also, a larger citrus tree will still have the same 2 year delay after planting to start fruiting, so you are actually closer to fruit with the one in the ground. Furthermore, once those trees get going you'll be up to a 24" size in no time. Yes, blood oranges take longer than the usual 2 years to fruit that other citrus trees take. Keep in mind, don't fertilize them for a long time. I hardly ever fertilize my trees these days and they grow like crazy.

I continue to water my peach on a grass schedule even when its dormant. In mid winter this amounts to every two weeks.
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psimitry



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 75
Location: maricopa

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it's a year later. Things are definitely looking...better.

Not great, but better. I'm still thinking of pulling the Trovita, as I found out not long after my last post that they are actually both Dwarf orange trees. Max height six feet. Great.

It'll actually work in a sense for the blood orange tree as I planted it a little closer to the house than I potentially should have. Having it below the roof line should hopefully eliminate any danger of roof rats.

But while things are looking fuller this year, I still don't feel like I'm getting any vertical growth. Is there anything I can do to encourage that?

Pictures taken a few moments ago (forgive the night shots)



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phoenixtropicals
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Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 1207
Location: Mesa Arizona

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking through your posts I see its been about 2 years since planting. It's great that your trees are looking good. I also now realize that they were very small trees when you first planted them.

I think to speed up the growth you'll want to fertilize them after the weather cools off. I generally wait until the highs are regularly under a 100 F. which is in October.

The first 2 years are the toughest for trees and I'm guessing you'll see more progress in the near future. I have a neighbor who has a dwarf tree too, but it doesn't seem to be as "dwarf" as he expected.

I wouldn't pull any trees out. If you want more fruit maybe you should get another tree in the fall. I have a small yard and I'm planting some of my trees as close as 6 feet and it's working out well.
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psimitry



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 75
Location: maricopa

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dwarf issue is really only a problem when I think about what I want the tree to do (other than produce fruit).

My parents have a mature orange tree in their back yard that is probably about 15 feet tall and very dense. It does a wonderful job of providing quite a bit of shade to their house. Now, the tree I have isn't in the south (rather it's on the north side of the house), but where I have it planted, and the angle that my house sits, it would provide a fair amount of Evening shade if the tree got big enough. Six feet (or even 8 ) wouldn't cut it.
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psimitry



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 75
Location: maricopa

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do blood orange trees typically produce thorns? I was under the impression that if your citrus was producing thorns, they had "gone wild" as it were.

Thoughts?
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phoenixtropicals
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Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 1207
Location: Mesa Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Tarocco blood orange has nasty 2 inch thorns on it, which is expected. I don't know about the other varieties.
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ajbcirc



Joined: 13 Apr 2011
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just stumbled across this thread.

I think part of the problem with the original posters' trees is probably the rootstock which the trees are grafted on.

If they were bought from Lowes, most likely they're on C-35 citrange, which is a common dwarfing rootstock that does great in California and terribly in Arizona. Occasionally, the rootstocks are listed on the pots.

Most Citranges have this in common:

Advantages: Phytophthora resistant, nematode resistant, tristeza immune, cold tolerant, tolerates waterlogging, good fruit quality, compact tree.

Disadvantages: dislikes high pH soil, dislikes highly acid soil, sensitive to salinity, sensitive to calcareous soils, drought sensitive, exocortis susceptible, slow growing in nursery.

http://users.kymp.net/citruspages/trifoliates.html

Unfortunately, every disadvantage is common here in Arizona. Our soils are calcareous and high in pH and our irrigation water is salty.

When I first moved out here, I bought a load of 5 gal citrus from Lowes and HD only to have trees that were essentially the same size 2 years later. I pulled all the trees and replaced them with trees grafted onto sour orange -- needless to say, all the trees were 7 feet and bushy three years later.

It's worth $65 to buy a 15 gal size B&B tree from Greenfields than to go cheap with a $22 big box tree that will barely grow here.
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phoenixtropicals
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Joined: 06 May 2008
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Location: Mesa Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree. The locally grown trees are worth the money, and better all around for here. Better flavor and more adapted. That being said, I have had neighbors that managed to have some success with the California imports. So, I wouldn't yank one out of the ground if it was established and doing decently.
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psimitry



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 75
Location: maricopa

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually did replace the Trovita with a Macetera from Greenfield. So far, it's pretty incredible. It's been in the ground for about a month and a half and it's already bigger than the tree that was in the ground.

I bought the cheapest size of tree and boy I'm glad I did. The clay based soil that the trees were planted in made the root bag HEAVY!

I almost bought the next size up. That would have been a mistake. Had I a furniture dolly, that might have worked, but I didn't hand carrying that to the back yard would have been insane.

I'm hesitant to replace the blood orange tree. I would like to, but the fact that it's been in the ground for longer than a year now gives me pause. Especially since it IS growing at this point, however slowly.
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phoenixtropicals
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you just brought back memories of when I bought my trees from Greenfield. The smallest one they had was at my "lift limit". Anything larger and you should just pay extra to have them plant it for you I think. They'll bring the jack hammer and you won't suffer the rest of your life with a spinal injury.. ha ha.
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psimitry



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 75
Location: maricopa

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blood orange tree this year. So this guy has come roaring back from winter with the leaf count....not so much with the growing upwards though. I realize it's a dwarf, but it'd be nice to see it get over three feet:



This is the new one from Greenfield:


It seems to be doing ok but I am a touch curious about the leaf color - as in it doesn't look right:



I know this isn't from overwatering... heck I didn't water it once over the winter. Rain was enough to prevent any leaf curling. I know that the tree is growing, as I had to cut the wraps and re-tie the covering on the trunk over the winter, but the leaf discoloration has me a touch worried. I could be worried for nothing, though.
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phoenixtropicals
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Joined: 06 May 2008
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Location: Mesa Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good! On that last tree, I think it would have been better to water some over the winter because a tree will survive here during winter without much water but would have grown better with some watering. Anyways, I think what you are seeing there is sunburn. I'm guessing those are last years leaves and they have just been bleached by the sun. You should have some new growth coming out soon and when those new leaves get bigger the tree will drop those older leaves. Probably since you are watering again you should see some new growth starting to happen.

Another thing, your trees will do better if they have some mulch, not a lot, but some mulch under them. If you make a bit of a berm around them for watering then that basin will also tend to catch leaf litter and create a healthier soil environment for the trees. The ground under your trees looks a bit too clean in the photos which is less friendly to soil micro-organisms and all that other good stuff. Here is a photo of my lemon tree for example



lemonTreeMulch.jpg
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Help me diagnose what (if anything) I'm doing wrong?


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